On Wednesday, I shared how I reckon some blokes think asking for help is the same as complaining, and how that may contribute to why they choose to suffer in silence.
I also wrote about how sharing my challenges is my attempt to normalise struggle, in hope that it will make others feel ok about theirs and ask for help.
But I'm interested to know what you think about this approach.
Do you think people compare asking for help to complaining? And if so, why?
And what else can we do to make blokes feel ok to ask for help?
I don't know if I think they do. I think that it can sometimes be perceived as a sign of weakness, when being open with feelings should be a sign of strength. Once we break this stigma and people feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable it will be a game changer.
I can't quite put my finger on it, but it's perceived in a way that it's a weakness to admit when something is wrong with you, because then you are not getting over something by yourself. I never understood why people would always try to bring down others who have the courage to get help for themselves.
Luckily I've never heard of anyone trying to bring others down for getting help.
Asking for help may mean there's something wrong now, but it doesn't mean that's always the case going forward because when you ask for help, the problem is more likely to get fixed!
One thought I've had is that as our world gets better and better, we have less reason to have sympathy for ourselves. Particularly here in Australia where life is incredible compared to most other places.
Ultimately, compared to the 100bn people who've lived before us and the 8bn people on the planet today, we are about as lucky as they come... so voicing our struggle doesn't feel right against the backdrop of other struggles.
But surely we need to start viewing our struggles as relative to us. The hardest thing we've been through is the hardest thing we've been through and just because Nelson Mandela spent decades in a prison cell, doesn't mean we don't get to let off some steam about a rough day's work.
We should strive for stoicism but when the pressure gets too much, do we need a way to let off some steam?
Some great answers indeed and totally agree we are crippled with the "curse of good luck". We've got it so good here that I think makes me people feel more guilty and worse when they do have a tough patch.
"We should strive for stoicism but when the pressure gets too much, do we need a way to let off some steam?" 100% skip!!!! And just like eating a healthy diet should be the goal, we need to accept that small steps are needed to get there, while sometimes cutting ourselves some slack along the way when needed.
I recently read a book called: If I'm so wonderful, Why am I still single by Susan Page. Written in 1986.
The opening page of chapter one, blew me away. I will type it below....
Introduction
The Great Emotional Depression
Finding Love in an unloving world.
Mother Teresa commented that the United States was the most loveless country she'd ever visited. I won't presume to say what she might have meant, but the statement hit home with me, for I have long experienced this culture as loveless. The West's preoccupation with money and consumerism seems to me far more dominant an influence in our lives than our desire for pleasurable human relationships. We say we seek love and belonging, but we spend far more time and energy acquiring money and the things it buys. Love is an extracurricular activity - relegated to odd moments outside the working day.
The real problem is the extent to which love and work are incompatible activities. Too often, time spent on one is time unavailable to the other. Worse. love and work require opposite types of behaviour. For example, to succeed in the 'marketplace', you have to be competitive, 'businesslike', wary of others, and committed above all else to the bottom line. To succeed in an intimate relationship, you need to be co-operative, flexible, emotionally available, honest and committed above all else to the welfare of your loved one. Such different skills are required for love and work that it is difficult to be good at both of them. And when society values visble affluence as much as ours does, most people are going to spend their energy becoming good at work. Love takes a back seat.....
I don't think the above just applies to romantic relationships and this book isn't just for those who are single. We are so focused on our careers and money (and the rising costs of living do not help with this) that while we care about our friends and family, we often don't have the time to really listen to them.
It's the listening and the validating of the human experience that makes the biggest difference.
You should start a substack Clare as I'd love to read more about your journey to get your insights and take on stuff. You're very wise and I can't agree more with: "We say we seek love and belonging, but we spend far more time and energy acquiring money and the things it buys."
However I disagree when you say "love and work require opposite types of behaviour" and I being in jobs I love (playing rugby and my work on Alfred) I feel my relationship with them is exactly the same and my relationship with my wife.
I might just continue to hijack your comments Ben haha. I do occasionally post my insight on my business socials, or chat to my patients in the clinic which is beneficial for me and for them.
It's great that you have the same relationship with your family and your work :). I feel that a lot of people think they need to choose one or the other as opposed to finding a good balance to have both. I do find sometimes the more energy you put into one, the less energy you have to put into the other or you simply feel burnt out all the time. But this is where open communication with your significant other can help. Recognising that you are aware you aren't currently meeting their needs and you'd like to change that but you need their help (generally meaning you need their patience and understanding).
I feel a lot of issues stem from society and what we have decided is "normal". Social and financial pressures result in a decrease of people living meaningful lives and subsequently an increase in the rate of depression. We fear judgement and are often afraid to be who we really are. It makes me sad that people aren't living to their meaning and purpose because they're afraid of being rejected by their peers.
I'm glad that psychology is being implemented into every day school curriculum, but I'd like to see more of the first nations culture implemented too. I feel we have so much we can learn from them and I'm grateful to have been exposed and then read Paul Callaghans books Iridescence and The Dreaming Path. https://theresilienceproject.com.au/at-home/podcasts/s4-episode-23-dr-paul-callaghan/
Excellent observation re the decision of where to put your energy, and I think the definition of having work you love is to have job that gives you energy and makes you feel great at the end of the day. Nothing worse than leaving the office after a long day drained with little energy left for family and friends. And after having depression, and I'd describe it as "feeling like your life energy battery is empty and you don't know how to recharge it". Luckily mine did.
Mate, I don't know the solution to the issue, if I did, I would no doubt be very wealthy off the back of that knowledge. But my own experience will hopefully flesh out the encyclopaedia of thoughts, approaches, and accounts you no doubt have offered up to you.
My own issues with depression and struggling in life I only ever discuss once I feel a bit better, when I am a bit lost, I close off and do not talk about it, when I feel better, I start addressing my depression in a bit more of a "review what happened" kind of thing. It is almost like I need to start feeling better before I talk about it, and perhaps that is the tricky bit, how do you dig yourself out of a hole? That will differ for each and every person. For me, I accept that depression will never be completely a non-issue. Although I do feel like I am building a tool set as to how I deal with it and for me it is important that I deal with it quietly, by taking control of my thoughts and forcing myself to get more sleep, get more exercise, drink a little less, and accept that it may be months until I start to feel in control again.
But your approach, is a tool in my approach, I may not engage with your commentary often, but it is still helping, I process my own depression quietly, but still read things like your articles, I still need others being vocal to help reassure myself that the goal is within reach still.
So even if you are doubting your approach, or opinion, you are right, having people talk openly about their struggles, does help those that don't take that approach themselves.
I don't think anyone knows the solution and in fact I dont think there's "one solution" to this problem other than gradual societal progress towards normalising struggle to make it easier to ask for help. Theres load of help available for people, but people still find it hard to even ask.
"When I feel better, I start addressing my depression" I totally get this, and going for a walk with someone I trust helped me go from feeling 1 out of 10 to a 3. Then when I was at a 3, I started the "review what happened kind of thing" which made me feel like a 4. Then armed with the insights I got from that review, I was able to make some small changes and eventually got back to feeling consistency like a 7-9 each day.
Hi Ben I think it’s a great approach to pose a question. I am not a man (obviously!) but I am a mother of a son. I know whereas my daughter is constantly verbalising about where she is at and how she feels - I observe the conflict in men as they must be strong and so knowing what vulnerability is and validating an emotional state and then to ask for help are often seen as enormous actions. Yes yes keep normalising how you feel or felt and most importantly how you sat with discomfort and what actions or steps - as small as they are - you took. How did it feel. And lastly how are you Ben and what is on your mind? :)
You also have a husband who's a terrific man and I owe a lot to Rusty for looking after me when I first came to Canberra.
What's on my mind? Well I'm glad you asked Cath! Prior to coming to KPMG, I’d had a bloody rough few years and feel grateful for the opportunity Christa, Jane G and Drew B have given me here, and the biggest thing that's been on my mind lately is how I can best use my skills to give back to them and KPMG. Client work is super important, but I don’t feel I’m maximising the amount of value I can give around high performance, and what I learned about dealing with stress that came with retiring from sport and running a business that ground to a halt during the lockdowns. How do you think I could best help KPMG outside of client work?
Yes it could be seen/heard as complaining as there is a fine line between a whinge and genuine issue, especially if people don't know the individuals circumstances. Furthermore being reliable is a desirable trait in men and women, especially in a professional environment, so people are reluctant to be seen as otherwise, even if they are actually battling. Plenty of stories of people who took on too much without thinking it through. I think key is trying not to put yourself in a place where you will be out of your depth and vulnerable to unforseen challenges. Of course this not always possible so you still need a confidant you can talk to in the first instance. Talk to through with them and get a fresh perspective. Then decide how best to deal with it. It would be naive, unfortunately, to think society is educated enough at present that one could be so open an honest about struggling without some stigma.
Yes! Being reliable is a massive trait we all want and perhaps we aren't great at knowing where the boundaries of our relability are? I know I felt bad pushing back on my boss about something I told him I'd do, but later realised I couldn't do it.
I guess to remove the stigma, society needs someone who's been public about how they overcame their struggles and went on to do great things as an example to prove the stigma is false. But people often forget Elon Musk has been public about his battle with depression and got help from friends like Jason Calacanis when Tesla and SpaceX were about to go bust.
Good example there with SpaceX. In your experience did athlete's ever say to the coaches or S&C "this is too much, need a break" or was that a no no?
Learning how/when to say no to more senior people is one of the first bits of advice I give to the new grads at work. It's OK to push back. Better than saying yes to everything and doing a crap job. Senior folk are often very time poor and will look to delegate as much as possible. Not their job to know if you are too busy to take it on.
I did once and it was bloody hard. It was 2013 and I asked to sit out our test match v Ireland because I was struggling with the online criticism I got from the Lions series loss, and a family member was having brain tumour removed, and I just couldn't play. But Ewen McKenzie, the team doctor and my teammates where all great about it despite me being unable to speak much about what was going on inside my head. All I could muster was "I can't play this week".
Ooofff life can pile tough times ontop tough times can't it. Looking at the Hoops situation the game/society has come a long way at least. Still a way to go.
Just throwing in that it’s not only blokes who find it difficult to ask for help or admit that they’re struggling. Many women do too. Anyone who’s ever prided themselves on being strong and resilient (or is perceived as such by others) is more likely to see it as a sign of weakness if they shatter that illusion. Or if you’re the one that everyone else confides in, maybe you feel that you have to be strong all the time to be the ‘rock’ that family and friends depend on. Also, some people just don’t have anyone close enough to confide in and don’t feel comfortable talking to strangers.
Oh I don't doubt that, was just more speaking from a bloke's perspective as I'm not a woman! hahaha
"Anyone who’s ever prided themselves on being strong and resilient is more likely to see it as a sign of weakness" - totally agree with this and I'm only now realising just how important our identity is to our well-being. And totally agree that some people don't have anyone close enough to confide in, which is a big part of why we started Running 4 Resilience so anyone could rock up, go for a walk or run, and become a part of a community of people who are great listeners as we've all been thru really tough times and know what it's like.
Perhaps people need help to identify a request for help, so they don't brush it off: "oh, you're fine!" "Plenty of people worse off than you!" and instead sit with them and actively listen. I think GPs are an under-utilised resource here. They can listen and refer without taking on the emotional element that disclosure to family or close friends could generate.
Good shout. Often people will find it easier to open up with a dispassionate professional rather than someone they know personally. Less fear of judgement.
I don't know if I think they do. I think that it can sometimes be perceived as a sign of weakness, when being open with feelings should be a sign of strength. Once we break this stigma and people feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable it will be a game changer.
Agree a game changer is needed, but why do you think asking for help is sometimes perceived as a sign of weakness?
I can't quite put my finger on it, but it's perceived in a way that it's a weakness to admit when something is wrong with you, because then you are not getting over something by yourself. I never understood why people would always try to bring down others who have the courage to get help for themselves.
Luckily I've never heard of anyone trying to bring others down for getting help.
Asking for help may mean there's something wrong now, but it doesn't mean that's always the case going forward because when you ask for help, the problem is more likely to get fixed!
Some great answers so far.
One thought I've had is that as our world gets better and better, we have less reason to have sympathy for ourselves. Particularly here in Australia where life is incredible compared to most other places.
Ultimately, compared to the 100bn people who've lived before us and the 8bn people on the planet today, we are about as lucky as they come... so voicing our struggle doesn't feel right against the backdrop of other struggles.
But surely we need to start viewing our struggles as relative to us. The hardest thing we've been through is the hardest thing we've been through and just because Nelson Mandela spent decades in a prison cell, doesn't mean we don't get to let off some steam about a rough day's work.
We should strive for stoicism but when the pressure gets too much, do we need a way to let off some steam?
I feel like we do.
Some great answers indeed and totally agree we are crippled with the "curse of good luck". We've got it so good here that I think makes me people feel more guilty and worse when they do have a tough patch.
"We should strive for stoicism but when the pressure gets too much, do we need a way to let off some steam?" 100% skip!!!! And just like eating a healthy diet should be the goal, we need to accept that small steps are needed to get there, while sometimes cutting ourselves some slack along the way when needed.
Love your discussions Ben.
I recently read a book called: If I'm so wonderful, Why am I still single by Susan Page. Written in 1986.
The opening page of chapter one, blew me away. I will type it below....
Introduction
The Great Emotional Depression
Finding Love in an unloving world.
Mother Teresa commented that the United States was the most loveless country she'd ever visited. I won't presume to say what she might have meant, but the statement hit home with me, for I have long experienced this culture as loveless. The West's preoccupation with money and consumerism seems to me far more dominant an influence in our lives than our desire for pleasurable human relationships. We say we seek love and belonging, but we spend far more time and energy acquiring money and the things it buys. Love is an extracurricular activity - relegated to odd moments outside the working day.
The real problem is the extent to which love and work are incompatible activities. Too often, time spent on one is time unavailable to the other. Worse. love and work require opposite types of behaviour. For example, to succeed in the 'marketplace', you have to be competitive, 'businesslike', wary of others, and committed above all else to the bottom line. To succeed in an intimate relationship, you need to be co-operative, flexible, emotionally available, honest and committed above all else to the welfare of your loved one. Such different skills are required for love and work that it is difficult to be good at both of them. And when society values visble affluence as much as ours does, most people are going to spend their energy becoming good at work. Love takes a back seat.....
I don't think the above just applies to romantic relationships and this book isn't just for those who are single. We are so focused on our careers and money (and the rising costs of living do not help with this) that while we care about our friends and family, we often don't have the time to really listen to them.
It's the listening and the validating of the human experience that makes the biggest difference.
You should start a substack Clare as I'd love to read more about your journey to get your insights and take on stuff. You're very wise and I can't agree more with: "We say we seek love and belonging, but we spend far more time and energy acquiring money and the things it buys."
However I disagree when you say "love and work require opposite types of behaviour" and I being in jobs I love (playing rugby and my work on Alfred) I feel my relationship with them is exactly the same and my relationship with my wife.
I might just continue to hijack your comments Ben haha. I do occasionally post my insight on my business socials, or chat to my patients in the clinic which is beneficial for me and for them.
It's great that you have the same relationship with your family and your work :). I feel that a lot of people think they need to choose one or the other as opposed to finding a good balance to have both. I do find sometimes the more energy you put into one, the less energy you have to put into the other or you simply feel burnt out all the time. But this is where open communication with your significant other can help. Recognising that you are aware you aren't currently meeting their needs and you'd like to change that but you need their help (generally meaning you need their patience and understanding).
I feel a lot of issues stem from society and what we have decided is "normal". Social and financial pressures result in a decrease of people living meaningful lives and subsequently an increase in the rate of depression. We fear judgement and are often afraid to be who we really are. It makes me sad that people aren't living to their meaning and purpose because they're afraid of being rejected by their peers.
I'm glad that psychology is being implemented into every day school curriculum, but I'd like to see more of the first nations culture implemented too. I feel we have so much we can learn from them and I'm grateful to have been exposed and then read Paul Callaghans books Iridescence and The Dreaming Path. https://theresilienceproject.com.au/at-home/podcasts/s4-episode-23-dr-paul-callaghan/
Excellent observation re the decision of where to put your energy, and I think the definition of having work you love is to have job that gives you energy and makes you feel great at the end of the day. Nothing worse than leaving the office after a long day drained with little energy left for family and friends. And after having depression, and I'd describe it as "feeling like your life energy battery is empty and you don't know how to recharge it". Luckily mine did.
Mate, I don't know the solution to the issue, if I did, I would no doubt be very wealthy off the back of that knowledge. But my own experience will hopefully flesh out the encyclopaedia of thoughts, approaches, and accounts you no doubt have offered up to you.
My own issues with depression and struggling in life I only ever discuss once I feel a bit better, when I am a bit lost, I close off and do not talk about it, when I feel better, I start addressing my depression in a bit more of a "review what happened" kind of thing. It is almost like I need to start feeling better before I talk about it, and perhaps that is the tricky bit, how do you dig yourself out of a hole? That will differ for each and every person. For me, I accept that depression will never be completely a non-issue. Although I do feel like I am building a tool set as to how I deal with it and for me it is important that I deal with it quietly, by taking control of my thoughts and forcing myself to get more sleep, get more exercise, drink a little less, and accept that it may be months until I start to feel in control again.
But your approach, is a tool in my approach, I may not engage with your commentary often, but it is still helping, I process my own depression quietly, but still read things like your articles, I still need others being vocal to help reassure myself that the goal is within reach still.
So even if you are doubting your approach, or opinion, you are right, having people talk openly about their struggles, does help those that don't take that approach themselves.
I don't think anyone knows the solution and in fact I dont think there's "one solution" to this problem other than gradual societal progress towards normalising struggle to make it easier to ask for help. Theres load of help available for people, but people still find it hard to even ask.
"When I feel better, I start addressing my depression" I totally get this, and going for a walk with someone I trust helped me go from feeling 1 out of 10 to a 3. Then when I was at a 3, I started the "review what happened kind of thing" which made me feel like a 4. Then armed with the insights I got from that review, I was able to make some small changes and eventually got back to feeling consistency like a 7-9 each day.
Hi Ben I think it’s a great approach to pose a question. I am not a man (obviously!) but I am a mother of a son. I know whereas my daughter is constantly verbalising about where she is at and how she feels - I observe the conflict in men as they must be strong and so knowing what vulnerability is and validating an emotional state and then to ask for help are often seen as enormous actions. Yes yes keep normalising how you feel or felt and most importantly how you sat with discomfort and what actions or steps - as small as they are - you took. How did it feel. And lastly how are you Ben and what is on your mind? :)
You also have a husband who's a terrific man and I owe a lot to Rusty for looking after me when I first came to Canberra.
What's on my mind? Well I'm glad you asked Cath! Prior to coming to KPMG, I’d had a bloody rough few years and feel grateful for the opportunity Christa, Jane G and Drew B have given me here, and the biggest thing that's been on my mind lately is how I can best use my skills to give back to them and KPMG. Client work is super important, but I don’t feel I’m maximising the amount of value I can give around high performance, and what I learned about dealing with stress that came with retiring from sport and running a business that ground to a halt during the lockdowns. How do you think I could best help KPMG outside of client work?
Yes it could be seen/heard as complaining as there is a fine line between a whinge and genuine issue, especially if people don't know the individuals circumstances. Furthermore being reliable is a desirable trait in men and women, especially in a professional environment, so people are reluctant to be seen as otherwise, even if they are actually battling. Plenty of stories of people who took on too much without thinking it through. I think key is trying not to put yourself in a place where you will be out of your depth and vulnerable to unforseen challenges. Of course this not always possible so you still need a confidant you can talk to in the first instance. Talk to through with them and get a fresh perspective. Then decide how best to deal with it. It would be naive, unfortunately, to think society is educated enough at present that one could be so open an honest about struggling without some stigma.
Yes! Being reliable is a massive trait we all want and perhaps we aren't great at knowing where the boundaries of our relability are? I know I felt bad pushing back on my boss about something I told him I'd do, but later realised I couldn't do it.
I guess to remove the stigma, society needs someone who's been public about how they overcame their struggles and went on to do great things as an example to prove the stigma is false. But people often forget Elon Musk has been public about his battle with depression and got help from friends like Jason Calacanis when Tesla and SpaceX were about to go bust.
Good example there with SpaceX. In your experience did athlete's ever say to the coaches or S&C "this is too much, need a break" or was that a no no?
Learning how/when to say no to more senior people is one of the first bits of advice I give to the new grads at work. It's OK to push back. Better than saying yes to everything and doing a crap job. Senior folk are often very time poor and will look to delegate as much as possible. Not their job to know if you are too busy to take it on.
I did once and it was bloody hard. It was 2013 and I asked to sit out our test match v Ireland because I was struggling with the online criticism I got from the Lions series loss, and a family member was having brain tumour removed, and I just couldn't play. But Ewen McKenzie, the team doctor and my teammates where all great about it despite me being unable to speak much about what was going on inside my head. All I could muster was "I can't play this week".
Ooofff life can pile tough times ontop tough times can't it. Looking at the Hoops situation the game/society has come a long way at least. Still a way to go.
Just throwing in that it’s not only blokes who find it difficult to ask for help or admit that they’re struggling. Many women do too. Anyone who’s ever prided themselves on being strong and resilient (or is perceived as such by others) is more likely to see it as a sign of weakness if they shatter that illusion. Or if you’re the one that everyone else confides in, maybe you feel that you have to be strong all the time to be the ‘rock’ that family and friends depend on. Also, some people just don’t have anyone close enough to confide in and don’t feel comfortable talking to strangers.
Oh I don't doubt that, was just more speaking from a bloke's perspective as I'm not a woman! hahaha
"Anyone who’s ever prided themselves on being strong and resilient is more likely to see it as a sign of weakness" - totally agree with this and I'm only now realising just how important our identity is to our well-being. And totally agree that some people don't have anyone close enough to confide in, which is a big part of why we started Running 4 Resilience so anyone could rock up, go for a walk or run, and become a part of a community of people who are great listeners as we've all been thru really tough times and know what it's like.
Perhaps people need help to identify a request for help, so they don't brush it off: "oh, you're fine!" "Plenty of people worse off than you!" and instead sit with them and actively listen. I think GPs are an under-utilised resource here. They can listen and refer without taking on the emotional element that disclosure to family or close friends could generate.
Excellent point. Perhaps they are asking for help and we're just missing it because its being asked for subtly?
Good shout. Often people will find it easier to open up with a dispassionate professional rather than someone they know personally. Less fear of judgement.
100%. People fear repercussions.